no way. i read the whole thing and hardly understood it but i think it said people who dont explicitly enroll in a volunteer vaccine program could get the plabo? AND they will never tell them?
if that is right how likely are these suggestions to be followed?
they make a number of arguments and statements about the ethics of placebos in trials, generally. the conclusion is that "yes, we should proceed as normal with the vaccine trials using placebos."
Where does the article that you linked support the claim that you made in the title?
The article makes an argument for placebo trials which, if anything, implies they haven't been done sufficiently yet. Let alone on HALF of ALL of those who got injected, which would be highly atypical.
Normally, you would have a few thousand to tens of thousand in each group that is part of the trial. Not replace half of everything you distribute with saltwater. That would be counterproductive to their stated objective of "bring[ing] this pandemic to an end."
Read it again. This is from the period just before EUA was issued. It's talking about the ethics of continuing placebo trials and argues strongly in favor. Placebo is always used in a clinical trial, as the article discusses, because it's necessary to determine the efficacy of the treatment. This article is answering the question of "is it ethical to give people placebos in this case?" and answers yes, providing various justifications for that position.
Imagine believing the 'stated objective' lmfao. Understand that the "disease" is basically harmless to most people and there is strong evidence form months prior to this article that 60% of the population possesses pre-existing immunity due to prior exposure to similar coronaviruses. Further, the "vaccines" do not purport to prevent infection or spread, merely to reduce the human impact of the virus by those who contract it. The purpose of a clinical trial is not to achieve an end with treatment, it's to study and measure the effect of the treatment being trialed. This article addresses the conflicting nature of "ending pandemic" view with that of a clinical trial and argues that it's paramount to adhere to a proper clinical trial, including the usage of placebo. This is a fair conclusion considering the "pandemic" is a joke and harmless to most people. There is also the placebo effect to be studied, which I posted another link about to help you understand that.
We do not know exactly the percentage of placebo or dosage distributed in the current phase 3 clinical trial but we do know that in controlled test groups the standard is 50%. If you simply imagine that the current "vaccine" program is a large study it's entirely logical to conclude that fully 50% of injection recipients received a placebo of some kind or another. The article does not discuss the nature of the phase 3 trial to be conducted so we have to deduce that on our own.
I never said I believed the stated objective. My point was only that "let's give half the people saline injections" and "let's prove the vaccines are effective, so everyone gets vaccinated, to end the pandemic" are direct contradictions.
If you simply imagine that the current "vaccine" program is a large study it's entirely logical to conclude that fully 50% of injection recipients received a placebo of some kind or another.
That is an unreasonable leap of logic, which is not substantiated by the link provided.
The current vaccine program certainly IS a large study, of sorts. But there is no indication the entire thing is a placebo study. Placebo studies are always performed as part of rolling out new vaccines, and they are always performed on small groups numbering in the thousands. Never 50% of all vaccines delivered. Merely talking about the need to perform placebo studies does not imply that they did anything of the sort here.
The purpose of the clinical trial is not to "end the pandemic" but to "prove the vaccine works." Those are not the same thing!
It's not an unreasonable leap of logic - the mrna vaccines are both openly in phase 3 clinical trial. They are also being distributed under an 'emergency use authorization.' Now suppose the phase 3 clinical trial is being conducted on large scale, by all recipients of it. If the phase 3 clinical trial is itself a large, mass test then it's entirely likely that there are multiple dosage levels including placebos being given via injection along with actual vaccines. VAERS data that identifies specific batches with far higher rates of complications are a clue that this is the case. The articles talks about the isolated "placebo study" groups you refer to but talks about a few other things, too. It's intentionally convoluted language but if you parse it you'll see that they're backing the idea of making the entire study a "placebo study." If you are doing a relatively uncontrolled, mass clinical trial then including placebo recipients /whom you can track/ would be necessary.
ask yourself - is the Moderna treatment currently in phase 3 clinical trial? yes or no? if yes, where is the trial being conducted, and what are the details of that trial? The linked article is from before the phase 3 clinical trial, and is not a private Moderna document. The decisions about the phase 3 clinical trial were made /after/ this article. This article shows you some of the considerations that would go into it. Now go back and answer the first question.
This sounds like lining up an excuse for all the vaxed who are testing positive, getting ill, dieing. Oh hey they were the control group. Roll up roll up
It's from Nov 2020. They aren't doing CYA for the current results we see out in the world. If you recognize that in a clinical trial a large number of people would get a placebo, the "mysterious" problem with breakthrough infections in people who got "vaccinated" is a lot more obvious now isn't it? This article is justifying the ethics of doing so by arguing that adhering to clinical testing is the most important thing and that they can respond if the placebo recipients end up having an issue, ie promote a booster shot that is not a placebo later.
Ethics, lmfao. Anyway, people are taking the drug on emergency authorization, no fucking strings attached. Until it's officially approved they can't compel anyone without following those guidelines you refer to.
[ + ] obscenity
[ - ] obscenity -1 points 3.8 yearsJul 23, 2021 22:01:28 ago (+0/-1)
if that is right how likely are these suggestions to be followed?
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 3 points 3.8 yearsJul 23, 2021 22:17:27 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] GloryBeckons
[ - ] GloryBeckons 4 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 01:10:16 ago (+5/-1)
The article makes an argument for placebo trials which, if anything, implies they haven't been done sufficiently yet. Let alone on HALF of ALL of those who got injected, which would be highly atypical.
Normally, you would have a few thousand to tens of thousand in each group that is part of the trial. Not replace half of everything you distribute with saltwater. That would be counterproductive to their stated objective of "bring[ing] this pandemic to an end."
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 1 point 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 04:51:09 ago (+1/-0)
Imagine believing the 'stated objective' lmfao. Understand that the "disease" is basically harmless to most people and there is strong evidence form months prior to this article that 60% of the population possesses pre-existing immunity due to prior exposure to similar coronaviruses. Further, the "vaccines" do not purport to prevent infection or spread, merely to reduce the human impact of the virus by those who contract it. The purpose of a clinical trial is not to achieve an end with treatment, it's to study and measure the effect of the treatment being trialed. This article addresses the conflicting nature of "ending pandemic" view with that of a clinical trial and argues that it's paramount to adhere to a proper clinical trial, including the usage of placebo. This is a fair conclusion considering the "pandemic" is a joke and harmless to most people. There is also the placebo effect to be studied, which I posted another link about to help you understand that.
We do not know exactly the percentage of placebo or dosage distributed in the current phase 3 clinical trial but we do know that in controlled test groups the standard is 50%. If you simply imagine that the current "vaccine" program is a large study it's entirely logical to conclude that fully 50% of injection recipients received a placebo of some kind or another. The article does not discuss the nature of the phase 3 trial to be conducted so we have to deduce that on our own.
[ + ] GloryBeckons
[ - ] GloryBeckons 1 point 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 05:12:43 ago (+1/-0)
That is an unreasonable leap of logic, which is not substantiated by the link provided.
The current vaccine program certainly IS a large study, of sorts. But there is no indication the entire thing is a placebo study. Placebo studies are always performed as part of rolling out new vaccines, and they are always performed on small groups numbering in the thousands. Never 50% of all vaccines delivered. Merely talking about the need to perform placebo studies does not imply that they did anything of the sort here.
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 05:55:53 ago (+0/-0)
It's not an unreasonable leap of logic - the mrna vaccines are both openly in phase 3 clinical trial. They are also being distributed under an 'emergency use authorization.' Now suppose the phase 3 clinical trial is being conducted on large scale, by all recipients of it. If the phase 3 clinical trial is itself a large, mass test then it's entirely likely that there are multiple dosage levels including placebos being given via injection along with actual vaccines. VAERS data that identifies specific batches with far higher rates of complications are a clue that this is the case. The articles talks about the isolated "placebo study" groups you refer to but talks about a few other things, too. It's intentionally convoluted language but if you parse it you'll see that they're backing the idea of making the entire study a "placebo study." If you are doing a relatively uncontrolled, mass clinical trial then including placebo recipients /whom you can track/ would be necessary.
[ + ] GloryBeckons
[ - ] GloryBeckons 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 06:17:29 ago (+0/-0)
Suppose the moon is made of cheese. Could be. But I see no indication of that being the case. And therefore have no reason to believe it.
Which is why I asked where, exactly, in the article you see that. I don't find the things you've mentioned convincing.
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 06:26:37 ago (+0/-0)
https://www.modernatx.com/covid19vaccine-eua/providers/clinical-trial-data
[ + ] xmasskull
[ - ] xmasskull 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 01:16:38 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 04:43:37 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] 2017Fallout
[ - ] 2017Fallout 1 point 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 04:02:12 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 1 point 3.8 yearsJul 24, 2021 04:54:58 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] 2017Fallout
[ - ] 2017Fallout 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 25, 2021 08:14:52 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] account deleted by user
[ - ] account deleted by user 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 25, 2021 12:46:35 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Empire_of_the_Mind
[ - ] Empire_of_the_Mind [op] 0 points 3.8 yearsJul 25, 2021 20:44:05 ago (+0/-0)