An analysis of 393 Ashkenazic, Iranian, and mountain Jews and over 600 non-Jewish genomes demonstrated that Greeks, Romans, Iranians, and Turks exhibit the highest genetic similarity with AJs.
There are two PCAs of western eurasia which include jews. You will see that a large number of “ashkhenazi” or white jews seem to fall somewhere between italy/greece and the levant. There are some caucasus jews that seem closer to caucasus and iran populations. And a few other groups that look more middle eastern. So whats going on?
The problem with just comparing number of SNP in common with armenians or whoever is this: all western eurasian populations are drawn from the same 4 or 5 ancient populations:WHG, ANE, anatolian farmers, iranian farmers, basal eurasians and some hybrid populations. Everyone in europe and the middle east is a mix of these components.
The point is, if a jew has a similar proportion of these racial components to an italian, does that mean that he is descended from italians? Not necessarily. He could be a mix of ancestors from north west of italy and ancestors from south east of italy, but that blend could give the illusion that the jews are most closely related to italians.
You are thinking about the problem like a settled agrarian and jews are not settled agrarians. They are itinerant and they collect genes from many different lands. There is no simple answer like “ they are really the khazars” that will be satisfactory. If they were just descended from caucasus peoples, we’d be having as much trouble with the armenians, and we’re not.
Some ancestor group evolved a unique strategy. I suspect that it was drawn from a middle eastern group but not necessarily a semitic one. I think that group became good at social parasitism, living off of the wealth of early cities and empires, maybe as priests. They hung around the middle east for a while and then ended up in europe, the caucasus, etc. Wherever they go, they collect genes that help them excel at social parasitism and cast off genes that hinder that strategy, like being honest.
You will find these genes in every population in lower frequencies. But in a group that exploits a parasitic niche, they will flourish.
I guess I would like to know what the founder population was, but I think it predated the Khazar khanate by maybe 3000 years. The real problem with jews is not where they come from. Its what theyve been doing for the last several millenia. Their strategy favors a set of opportunistic traits that are gene based, not learned.
There are thousands of genes that might make jews look like italians or cypriots on a PCA but there may only be a few dozen genes that make them good at being social parasites. We need to know which ones they are so we can test for them and protect our societies from them or others with strategies similar to them.
I don’t think that a study like this can really tell you anything like that.
Two sets of European populations are poor fits for the model. Sicilians, Maltese, and Ashkenazi Jews have EEF estimates of .100%, consistent with their having more Near Eastern ancestry
'The structure analysis was compatible with the Iranian and Iraqi Jews having predominant Middle Eastern/ Central Asian ancestry and the European and Syrian Jews having both Middle Eastern/Central Asian and European ancestry'
We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks.
When data on Ashkenazi Jew genealogical projects are included (see Methods for details), the Q3 frequencies in Europe become almost as high as in West Asia (Additional file 1: Figure S1).
Notably, up to 50% of Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal haplogroups (E3b, G, J1, and Q) are of Middle Eastern origin,15 whereas the other prevalent haplogroups (J2, R1a1, R1b) may be representative of the early European admixture.20 The 7.5% prevalence of the R1a1 haplogroup among Ashkenazi Jews has been interpreted as a possible marker for Slavic or Khazar admixture because this haplogroup is very common among Ukrainians (where it was thought to have originated), Russians, and Sorbs, as well as among Central Asian populations
Also the study is not relying on one or two haplogroups, its relying on genetic distance overall. And jews are genetically closest to the populations named above.
But again, Im not sure why we should assume that this means the AJ are largely descended from 8th cent. Caucasus populations. Wouldn’t anyone with similar proportions of natufian, CHG, EEF and ANE ancestry look genetically close?
Jews being “from everywhere” is consistent with greater heterozygosity and a lot of different haplogroups.
Im assuming all these PCAs are based on PCs derived from a set of markers that include autosomes and not exclusively on haplogroups.
The Q3 thing is interesting but its like 5% frequency in AJs.
jews arent from everywhere. hence the genetic distance thing. if jews were from everywhere it wouldnt be possible to place them as being genetically close to anyone as they wouldnt form their own genetic isolate
which they do
Ashkenazi Jews are a genetically isolated population with distinct patterns of genetic diversity.
if jews were from everywhere it wouldnt be possible to place them as being genetically close to anyone
I just don’t agree with this statement. Im sorry. Im really not trying to be difficult. Now youre never going to post another study again.
Let me try to explain my point one more time. We are comprised from different ancient populations that diverged at least 60kya. AJs emerge as a group 1500 to 2500 years ago perhaps as a continuing branch of larger jewish population which emerge around 5kya.
If I understand how they calculate these PCAs correctly (and Im not an expert), we are not only comparing alleles or mutations that arose in the last 2000 years or 5000 years. We are comparing alleles from groups that diverged much earlier. These PCAs are comparing like a million polymorphisms. Most of these alleles that are particular to italians or jews or whoever are much older that the existence of those groups. You are mostly just comparing how many ANE alleles you have or EEF alleles.
There are some unique alleles in AJs maybe a hundred or so. But they are not going to be distinguishable in a large scale analysis like this. You need to do a separate component in a third dimension. You need to see how other people will measure on a cline of AJ / not AJ. I think you will find that middle eastern jews will be closer to AJ than caucasus people on that PC.
I fear we may not achieve agreement on this subject!
jews are genetically distinct. they even require their own bone marrow registry. it doesnt matter that they have european ancestry because of their genetic distance- the thing that this study has measured
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 18:20:56 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Garrett
[ - ] Garrett [op] 1 point 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 18:24:01 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 20:22:42 ago (+0/-0)
-from the study.
https://files.catbox.moe/lspaz8.jpeg
https://files.catbox.moe/jne3yt.png
There are two PCAs of western eurasia which include jews. You will see that a large number of “ashkhenazi” or white jews seem to fall somewhere between italy/greece and the levant. There are some caucasus jews that seem closer to caucasus and iran populations. And a few other groups that look more middle eastern. So whats going on?
The problem with just comparing number of SNP in common with armenians or whoever is this: all western eurasian populations are drawn from the same 4 or 5 ancient populations:WHG, ANE, anatolian farmers, iranian farmers, basal eurasians and some hybrid populations. Everyone in europe and the middle east is a mix of these components.
The point is, if a jew has a similar proportion of these racial components to an italian, does that mean that he is descended from italians? Not necessarily. He could be a mix of ancestors from north west of italy and ancestors from south east of italy, but that blend could give the illusion that the jews are most closely related to italians.
You are thinking about the problem like a settled agrarian and jews are not settled agrarians. They are itinerant and they collect genes from many different lands. There is no simple answer like “ they are really the khazars” that will be satisfactory. If they were just descended from caucasus peoples, we’d be having as much trouble with the armenians, and we’re not.
Some ancestor group evolved a unique strategy. I suspect that it was drawn from a middle eastern group but not necessarily a semitic one. I think that group became good at social parasitism, living off of the wealth of early cities and empires, maybe as priests. They hung around the middle east for a while and then ended up in europe, the caucasus, etc. Wherever they go, they collect genes that help them excel at social parasitism and cast off genes that hinder that strategy, like being honest.
You will find these genes in every population in lower frequencies. But in a group that exploits a parasitic niche, they will flourish.
I guess I would like to know what the founder population was, but I think it predated the Khazar khanate by maybe 3000 years. The real problem with jews is not where they come from. Its what theyve been doing for the last several millenia. Their strategy favors a set of opportunistic traits that are gene based, not learned.
There are thousands of genes that might make jews look like italians or cypriots on a PCA but there may only be a few dozen genes that make them good at being social parasites. We need to know which ones they are so we can test for them and protect our societies from them or others with strategies similar to them.
I don’t think that a study like this can really tell you anything like that.
[ + ] Garrett
[ - ] Garrett [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 20:49:49 ago (+0/-0)
Maltese, and Ashkenazi Jews have EEF estimates of .100%, consistent
with their having more Near Eastern ancestry
https://booksc.org/book/29314923/94aaec
'The structure analysis was compatible with the Iranian and Iraqi Jews having predominant Middle Eastern/ Central Asian ancestry and the European and Syrian Jews having both Middle Eastern/Central Asian and European ancestry'
https://booksc.org/book/13240743/57cf08
We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks.
https://archive.ph/gb5nf#selection-891.334-891.628
When data on Ashkenazi Jew genealogical projects are included (see Methods for details), the Q3 frequencies in Europe become almost as high as in West Asia (Additional file 1: Figure S1).
https://archive.ph/TkPTg#selection-1403.152-1411.13
Notably, up to 50% of Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal
haplogroups (E3b, G, J1, and Q) are of Middle Eastern
origin,15 whereas the other prevalent haplogroups (J2,
R1a1, R1b) may be representative of the early European
admixture.20 The 7.5% prevalence of the R1a1 haplogroup
among Ashkenazi Jews has been interpreted as a possible
marker for Slavic or Khazar admixture because this haplogroup is very common among Ukrainians (where it was
thought to have originated), Russians, and Sorbs, as well
as among Central Asian populations
https://booksc.org/book/13240743/57cf08
Also the study is not relying on one or two haplogroups, its relying on genetic distance overall. And jews are genetically closest to the populations named above.
Heres a closer look at a genetic distance graph
https://files.catbox.moe/83kmkr.png
You can see therefore that jews are genetically closest to the 'near east' rather than middle eastern groups
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 22:44:57 ago (+0/-0)
Jews being “from everywhere” is consistent with greater heterozygosity and a lot of different haplogroups.
Im assuming all these PCAs are based on PCs derived from a set of markers that include autosomes and not exclusively on haplogroups.
The Q3 thing is interesting but its like 5% frequency in AJs.
[ + ] Garrett
[ - ] Garrett [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 22:53:11 ago (+0/-0)
which they do
Ashkenazi Jews are a genetically isolated population with distinct patterns of genetic diversity.
https://archive.ph/zDXkY
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 5, 2022 00:03:03 ago (+0/-0)
I just don’t agree with this statement. Im sorry. Im really not trying to be difficult. Now youre never going to post another study again.
Let me try to explain my point one more time. We are comprised from different ancient populations that diverged at least 60kya. AJs emerge as a group 1500 to 2500 years ago perhaps as a continuing branch of larger jewish population which emerge around 5kya.
If I understand how they calculate these PCAs correctly (and Im not an expert), we are not only comparing alleles or mutations that arose in the last 2000 years or 5000 years. We are comparing alleles from groups that diverged much earlier. These PCAs are comparing like a million polymorphisms. Most of these alleles that are particular to italians or jews or whoever are much older that the existence of those groups. You are mostly just comparing how many ANE alleles you have or EEF alleles.
There are some unique alleles in AJs maybe a hundred or so. But they are not going to be distinguishable in a large scale analysis like this. You need to do a separate component in a third dimension. You need to see how other people will measure on a cline of AJ / not AJ. I think you will find that middle eastern jews will be closer to AJ than caucasus people on that PC.
I fear we may not achieve agreement on this subject!
[ + ] Garrett
[ - ] Garrett [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 5, 2022 00:08:43 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 5, 2022 00:42:35 ago (+0/-0)
I get that AJs may share a high number of SNPs with Caucasus people but it doesn’t show that they are particularly descended from them.
[ + ] Garrett
[ - ] Garrett [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 5, 2022 00:47:48 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] SparklingWiggle
[ - ] SparklingWiggle 3 points 3 yearsApr 4, 2022 15:08:04 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] PotatoWhisperer
[ - ] PotatoWhisperer 0 points 3 yearsApr 5, 2022 00:24:49 ago (+0/-0)