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Ēostre is a west Germanic spring goddess and the inspiration for Easter

submitted by NationalSocialism to History 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 00:44:14 ago (+19/-3)     (www.thefield.co.uk)

https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035

Usually we think of delighted children scampering around searching for brightly-coloured eggs and symbolic rabbits hopping with baskets. However though these seem to be modern, they actually originate before the birth of Christianity. The pagan spring festival includes Ester, or Eostre, and it is a slightly different celebration of the holiday than most of us would think. Johnny Scott investigates this ancient spring festival.


66 comments block


[ - ] TalkUsername7777 -3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 06:17:22 ago (+0/-3)

English is the only language which calls the celebration of Jesus' Resurrection "Easter". AFAIK, every single other language on earth calls it "Pascha" or some variation.

muh Easter is really pagan

fake and gay

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:45:40 ago (+1/-0)

Ok, but we're still left with a situation where english easter traditions are based on a preexisting festival.

[ - ] account deleted by user 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 02:09:36 ago (+0/-0)

account deleted by user

[ - ] ReturnOfTheGoats 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 04:57:21 ago (+0/-0)

I thought Easter was associated with Ishtar?

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:44:43 ago (+0/-0)

I think that's a coincidence. The IE people already had their own pantheon at least as old as the sumerians. They didn't need to adopt foreign festivals.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:18:48 ago (+1/-0)

Could you help post in /v/aryangods ?

[ - ] NationalSocialism [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:46:44 ago (+0/-0)

Sure thing. It seems to me, people here only like if you post about jewish gods. Isn’t that what the sticky is for on the front page?

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:49:38 ago (+1/-0)

Eh, I think people are getting tired of it. I've seen way more people here waking up to the reality of christianity lately. That pin on the front page is wiggle's doing, he doesn't represent the userbase.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 01:51:45 ago (+2/-0)

They seem to be conflating celtic britons with germanic Anglosaxons and celtic holidays with germanic ones.

Eostre was a germanic godess. Imbolc, Lunasa, Samhain were celtic holidays that were celibrated celtic britons, but I would have thought they were already mostly converted by the 500s. Anyway, interesting stuff. Hares and eggs.

[ - ] Clueless_Enigma 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 05:52:57 ago (+2/-0)

Hmmm yes and no, as theres an argument to be had that the Old European Pantheon carries the same sect of deities but with different names. Similar to the Hindi pantheon that has 3.2 million faces of a singular god.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:45:43 ago (+1/-0)

The PIE pantheon, sure: dyeus pater = Zeus = Jupiter = Tiu. But that divergence happens 4 to 6 kya. Germanic and Celtic religions would have diverged 4 or 5 kya. The celts had a distinctive religion from the germanic one by the end of the iron age, when they are conquered by the Romans.

In the 6th century the native Britons were somewhat romanized, and, I would assume, mostly christianized, welshy sort of people who hated the anglosaxons, who were pagan invaders. The celts would have celibrated Beltane, even after christianization, one presumes, which is the mid-point between the equinox and the soltice. I don’t thing the germanics had the same holiday. I just think its sloppy for this article to mash in eostre and imbolc together, when they are from two different cultures that were fighting to the death for dominance over britain.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:36:46 ago (+1/-0)

Distinctive? Yes, but not incomparable. Lúgh/Lleu/Lugos has similar charactaristics to Oðin for example and Torainn/Taranis is directly cognate with þor (original was something like thunarwas). There was also a germanic tribe around modern day Silesia called the Lughii.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:12:44 ago (+0/-0)

Yeah I don’t contradict anything you just said, but the article makes it seem like pope gregory sold christianity to pagan anglo-saxons in the 6th century by using imbolc. The germanics were not celebrating imbolc

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:39:21 ago (+0/-0)

Well, the saxons absorbed at least some of the native british religion, just as the christians later syncretised with saxon beliefs.

[ - ] Clueless_Enigma 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:53:24 ago (+0/-0)

I mean the United states was populated by christians fleeing persecution by other christians, but that doesnt address the meat of your argument.

What distinctions of the Celts do you see that diverges so prominently from the PIE Pantheon? I would think it to be another iteration that branches off rather than a new entity altogether, unless you're suggesting Celtics to be an offshoot of the Picts?

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:40:37 ago (+0/-0)

They probably shouldn't have used the word "Briton" there, but in fairness in the period they were talking about Britain was ruled by the germanic Saxons, many of whom were still pagan. They had syncretised their beliefs with the romano-british so there was a bit of a mixed belief system at work there. For example, the samhainn practice of leaving out food for the dead is a very celtic one, but was adopted by the saxons.

[ - ] cyclops1771 3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 00:55:12 ago (+3/-0)

Well, the first recognition of Eostre is in the Venerable Bede's work. Modern scholars now claim that since his work is the firs tone that mentions it, it's fake. Becasue why didnt they write it down before 800AD? therefore it's fake and gay.

[ - ] NationalSocialism [op] 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 01:19:34 ago (+1/-0)*

It’s not something I believe in, nor know anything about. I stumbled across this article and found it interesting.

Clearly, Easter (the name) and imagery such as rabbits, eggs and a temperate seasonal climate are of European origin. Early Christians co-opted pagan traditions to convert Europeans to Christianity. Christmas is another Christian holiday borrowing elements from the Germanic festival of Yule.

[ - ] account deleted by user 3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 02:13:31 ago (+4/-1)

account deleted by user

[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:42:29 ago (+2/-0)

There is no universal trademark on spring holidays. Of course early Christians co-opted features of pagan traditions in order to acclimate them to the Christian veneration of Christ's passion. Of course.

Imagine you are the discover/inventor of full-length pants.

There is a culture that has never thought of pants, just shorts.

You want to show them the superiority of a culture having pants. Is your best bet to just throw pants at them, or also include some in-between lengths that act as a compromise between pants and shorts?

I very often get the feeling that people too easily confuse sociological facts with religious facts. If the Christians had done everything being accused of them in this thread, it would have zero relevance for assessing the truth of Christianity. This is humans figuring out how to market their brands with the least political conflict.

I don't know why everyone supposes that a Christian tradition surrounding an event occurring in the Spring could not possibly include any themes from other spring celebrations within other cultures. If I celebrate Christ's death and resurrection eating a lamb, and you like to celebrate in the pagan way, but you eat ham, it makes a lot of sense that if I wanted you to accept the truth about Christ, I'd suggest we all get together and eat ham.

There are accidentals, and there are pillars. Using symbols of rabbits or eggs or what have you, in connection with celebrations that ultimately surround the death and resurrection of Christ hardly seems like it merits the purity spiral I'm seeing in this thread.

It's kind of funny if you think about it. People critical of Christianity want to attack it for not being a monolithic thing, as though it is impure and defeated as the result of that impurity. Meanwhile, they espouse pagan traditions which were a historically late hodgepodge of traditions in which you could swap out most religious concepts for ten others and nothing would change.

It's more important to look at religious pillars, not accidentals.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:35:01 ago (+0/-0)

I mean, there is something to gather there, isn't there? Peoples of the Mediterranean had been writing for well over 1,000 years. Writing down the most important aspects of one's culture is kind of an indicator of how advanced a society is.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:18:25 ago (+0/-0)

There may be a gene or genes that help literacy. It might have taken a while for it to spread.

[ - ] cyclops1771 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 22:18:58 ago (+0/-0)

Celts were a verbal priesthood. AFter conversion, the books copied were Christian texts, and less on the old gods. To claim that since Bede mentioned it in 9th century, it means it must have STARTED in the 9th century, rather than "it's the first written account" about it. Also, remember that the Danes came by and burned the irish and british monestaries, think of how many stories were lost in that holocaust.

[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 7 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 07:20:01 ago (+7/-0)

everything good in christianity was stolen from whites (festivals, morality, god of truth)
everything bad in christianty comes from jews (give us your money, rapture the whole world, don't fight back, zion 4eva)

[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:18:21 ago (+1/-0)

Someone please apply a basic chronology to this, and use some sense. These missionary activities are taking place centuries after the Christian tradition was begun. If there is derivation of spring veneration surrounding particular dates in Christianity, its origins are in the Paschal tradition of Judaism. For fucks sake, every civilization on the planet worth noting had some venerating rite/celebration for the spring.

This does nothing to undermine the uniqueness or significance of the passion of Christ; it occurred in the spring because the historical events surrounding Christ's ministry and crucifixion can be understood, first, according to the Jewish traditions that occurred at that time of year.

It is not tremendously difficult to understand why the crucifixion of Christ occurred when it did. These are historical facts, not imitations of pagan tradition. Again, all enduring cultures have celebrated the spring with holy veneration.

Your comment is so stupid it is bewildering.

@PostWallHelena

[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 02:19:23 ago (+0/-0)

LOL you are coping so fucking hard. keep lying to yourself to maintain your delusion. that's all you can do. yeah man it's a total coincidence the two major dates line exactly up with pagan festivals of the sun rebirth/season changing...... fair dinkum. you people are mentally ill, just totally deny reality like brainwashed leftists do.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 08:41:52 ago (+1/-1)

While I agree that much of christianity does derive from white culture, I think its a good opportunity to point out that european paganism had a lot of shitty degenerate practices, like human sacrifice.

[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 4 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:15:50 ago (+4/-0)

typical christian propaganda. use your brain. all of these beautiful festivals come from them, yet you also think they're disgusting barbarians? oh and it was the 'pagan' greeks and romans who stopped other foreign cultures from practicing human sacrifice, not christians.

what christianity did stop is ANIMAL sacrifice. and i'm glad they did, it was an idiotic practice. and they may have extended the greek influence of stopping human sacrifice in the far reaches, but that advance was going to happen without christianity regardless.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:32:35 ago (+1/-0)

Voat fucking up again and cutting off text. See here for the full comment: https://www.voat.xyz/viewpost?postid=625a499e7c820&commentid=625ad3546e558

[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:30:44 ago (+1/-0)

I am only noticing it when you include quoted sections with the '>'. Until the bug is fixed, it might be better to just use a different method for indicating quotes.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:45:56 ago (+0/-0)

Its that it? I just thought it was when I started a new paragraph. Ive been writing long paragraphs with no breaks in my comments.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:52:47 ago (+0/-0)

I could very well be wrong, but I've only noticed the cutoff when I've done the formatted quotes. I hope they get it fixed. It is very annoying. It seems to want to include one paragraph after the formatted quote, and that's it. If you line break, it will cut all paragraphs out but the first. I made a post a couple of days ago that had multiple quoted sections and it left only one paragraph (of multiple) after each quote.

The full comment appears in my profile view, but not in the actual comments inside the post.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:31:48 ago (+0/-0)

what christianity did stop is ANIMAL sacrifice. and i'm glad they did, it was an idiotic practice

Is it? Farmers slaughter animals all the time, either in times of plenty because the herd has exceeded what the land can support, or in times of drought or famine when there's less resources than expected. Sometimes the decision of which animals to slaughter and when can mean the difference between prosperity and penury. In such circumstances it makes perfect sense to involve the gods, pray for success and invite them to the resulting feast.

There's also the consideration that a certain amount of sin applies to killing an animal. In jewish religions animals are seen as soulless playthings for humans to dispose of as they please. In european religions they're often seen as occupying a lower order in the karmic cycle, but still comparable to humans, so their death has to be brought about with the blessing of the gods.

There were some ceremonies which involved a holocaust (burned offering) but those were on the scale of an entire nation and celebrated only once a year, or every few years. A goat being sacrificed by hundreds of thousands of people is not an enormous amount of waste and doesn't entail any more suffering than a goat being slaughtered for food.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:09:18 ago (+1/-0)

Perhaps it was a way for priests to live high on the hog without doing real work? Look at all the laws regarding requirements of sacrifice in the OT. I think this was an early con that enriched (((priest-kings))) in mesopotamia. “Oy vey peasant, kill your cattle for us and god will be nice to you. Im feeling peckish... er, pious today. “

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:05:27 ago (+0/-0)

Firstly, why should priests not be rewarded for their work? Not every ruler is a despot, they do provide useful services like arbitration and defence. Secondly, why are we assuming a priest is involved? Many pagan rites were lead by heads of households.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:26:32 ago (+0/-0)

why should priests not be rewarded for their work?
Like any bureacrat, the work product of a priest is informational and its valuation is highly subjective. Let’s all pay taxes so that high school teachers can be rewarded for teaching children! Yay! Sounds good until they start telling your kid to cut their dick off. Any population which can live off a particular niche, will evolve to become more efficient at exploiting that niche. Hereditary priestly castes over time will become parasitic off the population. They hive off as a separate population and begin to work to benefit themselves rather than the host population. Imagine Joel Osteen, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell (these are televangelists in case you don’t know) living in the Bronze age, living off the “show”, demanding sacrifice “or else”, controlling commerce, controlling the law, controlling politics— and intermarrying with other televangelists over a thousand years. What would a thousand years of intermarrying televangelists produce? Highly intelligent, manipulative workshy elites, who live off the populace like livestock. (See: Where do jews come from?). Priestly castes and nobility will become corrupt (if they don’t already start out that way through conquest) because they will evolve to exploit their niche more effectively. The amish and the quakers had the right idea about the church hierarchy accumulating wealth and living off the congregation. The value of spiritual leadership is highly subjective and if you reward it with wealth, you will see priests arise who become efficient at using spiritual leadership as a tool to enrich themselves. Same with nobility. You have to anticipate evolution and how economics will influence it. The workproduct of priests and nobles and kings of the bronze age compares well to the workproduct of politicians and bankers and lawyers. Why are they exploiting their power over culture to subjugate us and steal from us? Alot of these guys are white. They should be loyal right? Answer: because they can, its in their interest. Maybe I won’t be cut off?

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:52:56 ago (+0/-0)

But how do you explain people voluntarily requesting the services of priests? It wasn't all tithes and taxes. Their value might be subjective, but that's the nature of value. They're not exploiting their power over culture any more than a teacher is "exploiting" their knowledge by asking to be paid for their lectures.

[ - ] PostWallHelena -1 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:20:22 ago (+0/-1)*

typical christian propaganda. use your brain. all of these beautiful festivals come from them, yet you also think they're disgusting barbarians?

Where did I say they are disgusting barbarians? The greeks were practicing human sacrifice at the same time as the semites.
but that advance was going to happen without christianity regardless.
It probably would have. But it seems that it mostly occurred with christianization. I don’t think we should idealize pre-christian europe.

[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:57:04 ago (+0/-0)

no they weren't. there's no proof they ever did, only speculation, and if they did the practice ended way way before christianity. and no, by the time of christianity, it was already mostly eradicated throughout europe... by the very people you just tried to pretend were the ones practicing it. why do christians lie so much for?

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:41:43 ago (+0/-0)

No its not speculation. If we take the bible as evidence that semites sacrificed children, we have to take Homer seriously too when he describes child sacrifice. I just read that human sacrifices of greek and roman youths were carried out when the Romans invaded Gaul. I think Tacitus recorded it. That is 1st cent BC. There plenty of evidence of Romans and greeks using sacrifice and the Celts were doing it much later than the romans and greeks. Caesar documented celtic sacrifice himself. Archeologist have uncovered bog bodies that were victims of ritual sacrifice. First hand accounts of servants being sacrificed at the funerals of their masters in Viking culture. I am an atheist. You have just swapped christian partisanship for pagan partisanship. Pagans were swell and dindu nuffin. They were not perfect. They had some appalling practices. You are romanticizing them. My last comment was cut off. Longer comments are being cut off at paragraph tags fyi.

[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 02:24:35 ago (+0/-0)

like a typical woman you can't use logic at all. wtf does 1000bc practices have to do with anything? i said greeks/romans ended human sacrifice, not christians. this is a FACT. it's not FUCKING debatable so shut the fuck up. christians ended only the last vestiges i.e idiotic funeral rites in the far north aka vikings etc. but greeks/romans are majority responsible and thus would've completed ended it without christianity.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:07:48 ago (+2/-0)

Fucking voat cut off most of my comment. Follow the link to see the whole thing: https://www.voat.xyz/viewpost?postid=625a499e7c820&commentid=625abf815c14a

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:00:30 ago (+0/-0)

Im assuming my comment will get cut off so check the link.
1. If we're going to accuse pagans of human sacrifice we're going to need to do the same for christians. Arresting non-believers and burning them at the stake in the presence of religious authorities as an "act of faith" is human sacrifice.

Gonna disagree. Burning people at the stake could be human sacrifice, but burning heretics is not human sacrifice. Pagan europeans typically picked their “best” for sacrifice - these were not punishments for breaking the rules.

You can’t just say “Christians were brutal and murderous too so they also practice sacrifice.” Its not the same thing. Nobody is saying Christians aren’t ever brutal. But they did not practice sacrifice , as far as I know. The Christians did not say :” hey theres a perfectly good virgin over there, lets stick her in the wicker man.
Actual pagan sacrifice purely for religious purposes was rare, but did occur. The only example I can think of where it involved an unwilling victim was the sacrifice of Iphigenia by Agamemnon

Don’t agree. I imagine that pagan human sacrifice in europe, as in the ME, and basically everywhere else, was ubiquitous. Ubiquitous. Totally. We do ourselves a disservice when we deny that our fairly recent ancestors were capable of these sort of superstitious killings. The homer story shows that it was common practice among iron age greeks. Greeks and Romans had given up the practice by the period of classical antiquity but the celts had not. The germanics had not.

We love to point out that the Mayans were removing people’s hearts 500 years ago in creepy ceremonies. Or the semites for moloch. Or sati. But we don’t want to look at what we were up to on that score.

The psycho-historians were a group of freudian anthropologists that an interesting theory about murder and sexual abuse, particularly with respect to children, within societies. They documented human sacrifice in ancient societies as well as in contemporary tribal groups. After reading some of their stuff, I came to the conclusion that basically everybody was doing it.

Im just trying to encourage a more balanced debate the blueeyed initiated, which was a pretty biased statement. There were some good changes that occured in europe that are associated with Christianity. And they didn’t all come from whites.

How about dudes fucking each other in the ass? I don’t know if that was acceptable practice among the Celts but the Romans and Greeks both did it until Christianity outlawed it.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:13:05 ago (+1/-0)

Gonna disagree. Burning people at the stake could be human sacrifice, but burning heretics is not human sacrifice. Pagan europeans typically picked their “best” for sacrifice - these were not punishments for breaking the rules.

Why is it not human sacrifice? It's an act of purifying the community in order to restore divine favour. I don't see any meaningful distinction there.

Don’t agree. I imagine that pagan human sacrifice in europe, as in the ME, and basically everywhere else, was ubiquitous. Ubiquitous. Totally. We do ourselves a disservice when we deny that our fairly recent ancestors were capable of these sort of superstitious killings. The homer story shows that it was common practice among iron age greeks. Greeks and Romans had given up the practice by the period of classical antiquity but the celts had not. The germanics had not.

Well you're entitled to your imagination, but keep in mind your imagination has mostly been shaped by the accounts of Roman and Greek authors trying hard to distinguish themselves from their "barbaric" neighbours. They weren't above lying about other civilisations to justify their wars.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:26:09 ago (+0/-0)*

Ritual human sacrifice pertains to pleasing deities as part of a vassal contract. Burning humans at the stake is legalistic punishment. One says something about the nature of God's relationship to man, and the other says something about how the Church was attempting to quell a massive Jewish attempt at infiltrating and corrupting the Church.

The Greek pagans were the only pagan society and body of thought worth anybody's time. Their neighbors were barbarians, and Helena is correct to point out the radical gaps in sophistication between the Greeks and the other European pagans, not just in terms of religious systems but also in terms of civics and institutions.

The main social benefit of Abrahamic faiths came from the way these situated gender roles in human society; the celts and germanic tribes still venerated women, in terms of spiritual significance, at the same level or higher than men. Women were ubiquitously treated as superior diviners of the will of the gods. Abrahamic faiths made the step of grasping the connection between evil and the feminine, and thus, situated the feminine with respect to the masculine within a hierarchical situation in which God acts through man, who via his moral perfection can also perfect the feminine, by analogy. God is to man as man is to female, in terms of the salvific relation.

Put another way, God does not save woman, and then also saves man. God saves woman via man, by connecting them in the proper relationship. We do not want a return to paganism. A cursory observation of the 'bohemian' trends that kicked up throughout the 18th-20th centuries in cosmopolitan Europe (and later the Americas) reveals this common feature of a return to male-female metaphysical egalitarianism.

@PostWallHelena

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:39:39 ago (+0/-0)

God does not save woman, and then also saves man. God saves woman via man, by connecting them in the proper relationship.
sigh Well I disagree. Surprise. But there is an undeniable trend here: and elimination of many female deities or icons. Virgin Mary is still in there, a few femoid saints, but they are effectively banished as well in post reformation northern europe. Christianity and Islam both greatly reduce the visibility of women in the religion. There could be different explanation for this. I will think on it

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:00:17 ago (+0/-0)

Here's the trouble. On the one hand, you disagree with the theology plainly. On the other, and assuming you would charitably accept the theology, you probably want to disagree with the subordination of the female to the male.

I won't argue you about theology here, but I wish I could communicate succinctly how the female subordination to the male is not an example of metaphysical submission or inferiority --> only social, only in terms of material relations in the world.

To put it shortly, and this is going back a long way, the female is originally what 'distracted' God from being God. This is very archetypal, but it works for my purposes. All of material creation (matter), which is woman/womb, is the bride of God's seminal Logos. This is why in the narrative Eve is the one who eats the apple. You could say God is coming into creation for her, or creation happens because of her. But that's why hers is chaos, and 'rescuing' woman is done by the male in via.

It's not about muh masculinity must beat woman into submission. It's that woman's power has to be contained and channeled or it becomes chaotic. This isn't a lowly position, but ya know, women's lib and everything. Gotta do the 9-5 to be free.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 16:41:40 ago (+0/-0)

Religions (or ideologies in general) will try to explain away all kinds of weaknesses. “You’re not really inferior, just in all the ways that matter!” Islam subjugates women, forces absurd restrictions on them, barters them as chattel, marries them off at 13. But if you ask most muslims, they will say “ No, Islam honors our women. We only treat women that way because we love them so much” Japanese will say “Geisha are not high class prostitutes. Sure they have sex with their clients who pay them, but you are not understanding geishas correctly if you think they are prostitutes.” I think they are prostitutes. Its the Jedi mind trick. “Your husband is in charge of you but we are in no way favoring him or saying he is better than you” uhhhh, yeah. Ya are.
I don’t have a big beef with christianity on this score. European christian society is relatively egalitarian. There are worse places to be a woman.

In the end, it comes down to what works. Men have to dominate women either physically or economically otherwise they become superfluous and women are so happy and free they dispense with reproduction and the society fails. So nature does not seem to favor independent women at this time. As Ive said elsewhere, over and over again (and over, and over) , there is nothing inherently evil about the female character and there is nothing inherently logical about the male character. Males are as illogical and emotion based as women— they simply have a different emotional make-up. Woman seems like “chaos” to a male theologian for the usual reasons: male theologians are driven to posses women, but they tend to get in the way of theologinating (I just invented that word) and they have totally different priorities than males, which simply cannot be right, because male theologians talked it over and agree that they don’t make any sense!

Its like saying female dogs are chaotic and evil compared to male dogs. Male dogs represent progress. Female dogs are a throwback to some more backward carnivore. Absurd. Female dogs’ behavior makes perfect sense for female dogs, who have to birth and raise baby dogs. They are perfectly adapted to the job they must accomplish.
“It's that woman's power has to be contained and channeled or it becomes chaotic”
The chaos is in men’s minds, not in women. Its just arbitrary. Men are full of chaos. You simply choose to overlook it.
As an evolutionist, I would hazard to say that men want/need to control women’s sexuality because if they don’t, they can’t establish paternity (historically) and if they can’t establish paternity, then there’s no sense working and taking care of the wife and kids, and western civilization crumbles. But it isn’t because women are really chaotic. More likely, it’s an instinct in men to control women for their own reproductive strategies.

I don’t think having and raising kids is a lowly position. But it is a position that puts one at an economic disadvantage to a man.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 17:23:25 ago (+0/-0)

Any behavior could be interpreted by many rules. If one wants to see subjugation/submission, he/she will see it. If I say there is a transcendent grace in the male-female pair under Christianity, you can say, "Fairy dust. It is subjugation economically." Still, we can wonder whether economic theory is the be-all/end-all explanation of the nature of reality. I do not think that it is, for many reasons - but since Darwinism is fundamentally an economic theory, you are limited to viewing reality economically. Another rule. I could point out how subjugated you are to such a theory - you ought to free yourself, young woman.

The paradigm of 'ask your husband' under Christianity is not saying he is better than you. In fact, it is acknowledging his mentality is more suited to a particular domain of the pair's existence than her is: namely, concerns of the tribe/nation/polity and its endurance/perpetuation into the future. I can totally step out of religious matters and make a case regarding the female psychology, that it is intrinsically more self-oriented and less group-oriented than the male psychology. This is typically what I mean when I say that man and woman play different moral games.

This purchases the fairly reliable assumption that the men within a society will tend to emphasize laws/practices that protect the entire 'game' of society. This is why they tend to be more militaristic, and why the male in-group v. out-group perception pertains to a much wider field than the more effeminate field of one's being a stranger to a particular social circle. Men are thinking about invaders of nations. Women are thinking about invaders of a communal order, the predictability or threat of particular males that come a' callin'. Of course, I'm speaking of general trends and not of rules that deterministically govern all men or all women - it's fairly obvious that you are interested in topics at the level I've just characterized as 'male'; then again, you are an exception among women (at least in my experience). It does no good to say that you've met others at this site who are like you; it is very likely the case that women who 'make it' at sites as male-skewed as this one are just those who are a bit different than the typical female population who statistically avoids these places.

The point I'm making is that there is a reason for the 'ask your husband' paradigm. We can assume that a woman's moral priorities will be far more geared toward her wellbeing and her child's - they will be domestic in scope, meaning only that their boundaries are 'closer to her interests'. The man has a predicament in a society, which in being diplomatic among other men and carrying on his civic duties for mutually protecting the whole social 'game' means that he has to make decisions that are not only for his family's (his wife's, his children's) interests, but he must balance these against the prevailing national interests. Thus, it is for the male to be the diplomat.

There is no proper interpretation of the Christian marriage dynamic where a man is 'better' than his wife. Instead, the intention is that he and she will work it out together. She will present her arguments. He will present his own. There ought to be compromise, often taking domain specific boundaries: she will more often compromise here, and he will more often compromise there. In the end, each household in a society must represent a decision - not two, not three, but one - else society is fragmented, or fragment-able by dividing the wife from her husband (which is precisely what feminism accomplished, and opened itself up to wolves by virtue of this). Thus, it is said for reasons stated above, that the final 'house' decision comes to the male. Again, if he is acting properly, he will not ignore his wife, but he will consider her interests very seriously because they are the ones he ultimately represents, and she is the one he lives for. This is really about hierarchy for the sake of social endurance.

A society where the male and female are separated into individual 'sovereign' units is a weaker society. Families are the relevant unit, and there is no family without hierarchy and leadership. My ideology would simply be that which says that it is more appropriate for the male psychology and social role to be the arbiter of the final decision, since it is he who mediates between his family and other families, which can also be understood as the highest risk position in the society: since it is his head which is on the chopping block if diplomacy fails. He understands this better than the female does, who again, is predominantly selfish, for good evolutionary reasons.

The word 'evil' is loaded. But there is something inherently anti-social in the female character. They will say that men have more anti-social qualities, and this is true, because his disagreeability just is his ability to compete with other males in the social game of differentially winning more resources for his own wife. Women on the other, who are traditionally considered as being pro-social, are highly agreeable in public which can make the overall society toxic (consider how our feminized society uses virtue signaling like moral tokens to play contrived games, even while most of these people know they are lying through their teeth - the facts of reality are buried beneath Brady Bunch social dynamics and the infection mounts), even while in her heart she is doing all of this purely for self-seeking. One cannot deny, if they have experience, the way women behave in groups of other women. I've heard so many women discuss how toxic women truly are: this toxicity is an overwrought term to describe her self-seeking behavior.

Men cannot behave this way, or there would be no society. They must be more diplomatic with other men. Again, there are always exceptions. And it is the case that the moment you introduce women into any competitive hierarchy, the entire thing becomes feminized. Men can no longer compete in a pure way, they must adjust their strategies to become more feminized. This always leads to less efficiency. Male hierarchies are pure social efficiency. Women become resentful about this fact, but most often this is because they tend to focus on the males who are successful, and they tend not even to 'see' the men who are not. If they did, they'd realize men were the true sacrificial elements of society. The majority of men are sacrificed, even when they don't die. "Look, a boardroom filled with ten men! An injustice!" No, because there are 10,000 others who couldn't make it there, and those men will be decrepit by 50 years from knee and hip problems, working rough jobs in mines, or working on high lines, or what have you.

Women that are not controlled by the society in this way do tend to promote chaos, primarily when their nurturing instinct is prevented from being focused on the self and the home, and becomes overextended/misguided into helping members of the out-group. Men are a boundary condition needed to prevent this from happening.

Your views on the evolutionary biological 'cum wars' between man and woman are mistaken, in my view. Again, there's always a rule. You could view them this way, if all we are is selfish genes. I believe in concepts like final causation (telos), where the male-female pair have an intrinsic essence to be united in this way. You want to say that each has their own exclusive reproductive strategy that competes against men; I want to say it competes against individual men, so it is a heuristic for finding the best male. But none of this make sense if there is not a higher order governing the ideal society.

A society can consist of warring men and women who play fertility games and act monogam-ish. A society can consist of a more logical order than this, and it is without exception that a society under the Christian view is a better one, in which both male and female sacrifice their perfect freedom to the higher duty of their bond.

Partners, not enemies. This is a choice. No rational argument can implore that choice.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:48:30 ago (+0/-0)

Ritual human sacrifice pertains to pleasing deities as part of a vassal contract. Burning humans at the stake is legalistic punishment.

Ok, and why was that law passed if not to please a deity?

One says something about the nature of God's relationship to man, and the other says something about how the Church was attempting to quell a massive Jewish attempt at infiltrating and corrupting the Church.

It does? The primary agent of the inquisition (Torquemada) was jewish.

The Greek pagans were the only pagan society and body of thought worth anybody's time. Their neighbors were barbarians, and Helena is correct to point out the radical gaps in sophistication between the Greeks and the other European pagans, not just in terms of religious systems but also in terms of civics and institutions.

Imagine simping this hard for an ancient tribe with a superiority complex.

The main social benefit of Abrahamic faiths came from the way these situated gender roles in human society; the celts and germanic tribes still venerated women, in terms of spiritual significance, at the same level or higher than men. Women were ubiquitously treated as superior diviners of the will of the gods.

This is objectively false. Feminist neo-pagan larpers are not a reflection of the original societies they claim to copy. Name me a female druid please.

We do not want a return to paganism.

Speak for yourself. Ditching the iron-age globalist cult would do us a lot of good.

A cursory observation of the 'bohemian' trends that kicked up throughout the 18th-20th centuries in cosmopolitan Europe (and later the Americas) reveals this common feature of a return to male-female metaphysical egalitarianism.

Again, feminist larping does not reflect the original european religions. And incidentally those larpers mostly turn out to be jewish. We do not need more jewish religious views in europe, we need less.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:17:42 ago (+0/-0)

I think there is a meaningful difference between killing a human being to please a god and receive his favor, versus killing human beings threatening to corrupt the institution itself. These are killings of a different nature - your objection that both are for 'pleasing' a deity is assimilable to all of morality under theism. All right actions would be understood as pleasing insofar as they are moral. But different moral acts have different natures.

As a converso, Torquemada was recognized as being remarkably zealous with respect to his Christianity. He took a movement which had not even begun as an anti-Jewish movement in Spain distinctly, and he made it an anti-Jewish movement. These dialectics are complex, i.e. between Christians and Jews in the Renaissance. Some conversos were legitimate. Some were not.

A superiority complex is not a complex if you really are superior. Greeks gave us Plato and Aristotle; I'll wait for the example from Druidry that could even possibly be on par with the genius of the former. But the Druids weren't even transmitting anything into history in writing at that point.

(Name a female Druid please)

How about the Bandorai (Banduri)?

How about Norse Seidhr?

[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:45:04 ago (+0/-0)

I think there is a meaningful difference between killing a human being to please a god and receive his favor, versus killing human beings threatening to corrupt the institution itself.

The inquisition didn't just kill jews or members of the church, it also killed white protestants. If we're really going to make all these exceptions and excuses for christian religious authorities killing people then we need to do the same for non-christians, in which case human sacrifice all but disappears.

Classical sources mention female spiritual figures, but not ones taking a leading ecclesiatical role. If that's your metric then we can easily say the same about christianity.

[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:55:05 ago (+0/-0)

Killing people was not a liturgical or sacramental part of the Christian faith. That's the only distinction I require. Among pagans, killing was liturgical and sacramental.

So we have the distinction between feminine spiritual figures and female 'clergy'. Catholicism has Mary, but not a plethora of feminine goddesses - it situates the divine feminine in one person. I take this as a more highly sophisticated structure, in the same way that monotheism is more sophisticated than polytheism. That is, it is achieving greater abstraction in its universals.

I'm not terribly educated on druidism. But as far as I knew the Bondorai were female druids (priestesses). I am skeptical that ancient Druidism or Norse religion started as a strict patriarchy and somehow morphed over time. The archaeological evidence I am aware of for the most primitive belief systems suggests a completely opposite development. Under regular conditions, religions begin with worship of the feminine and evolve beyond this. For that reason, I'm skeptical that Druidism began as you are suggesting it did. I don't argue that there weren't social norms that made it less likely a woman would become a druid, but I do think the feminine sexual relation to the divine was a cornerstone of ancient pagan ritual, and things like sexual rituals or orgiastic rituals were not uncommon.

[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:07:13 ago (+1/-0)*

I think its a good opportunity to point out that european paganism had a lot of shitty degenerate practices, like human sacrifice.


1. If we're going to accuse pagans of human sacrifice we're going to need to do the same for christians. Arresting non-believers and burning them at the stake in the presence of religious authorities as an "act of faith" is human sacrifice. Not to mention that the entire religion is based on an act of human sacrifice (and one remarkably similar to indo-european myth at that). This critique also applies to atheist philosophies. Almost every society does or has executed people with all kinds of ceremony and social-theatre.

2. If we're going to excuse christianity and say that the auto-da-fé and similar rituals don't count, then we also need to discount almost all pagan human sacrifice. Most of it involved the killing of humans for a specific practical purpose (like executing thieves). The religious authorities were involved because they were involved in any important event, but that doesn't mean the event was religious and would not have happened in a christian society.

3. Actual pagan sacrifice purely for religious purposes was rare, but did occur. The only example I can think of where it involved an unwilling victim was the sacrifice of Iphigenia by Agamemnon, however this is typically treated as sacrilege and causes an enormous curse on his family. As for willing adult sacrifices I don't see those as degenerate provided that the victim and cause are worthy. Furthermore there are direct parallels in christianity in the form of mortification of the flesh and abstinence. This is usually non-fatal, but does rarely result in death and is usually treated as an act of faith rather than suicide. There are also similar practices among some buddhist sects whose monks begin eating a diet of preservative poisons eventually resulting in their body becoming mummified. They believe that in doing so they are able to alleviate natural disasters such as famine. This is clearly human sacrifice by a pagan group but is rarely treated as such by commentators.

TL;DR "Pagan human sacrifice" is only a problem if you apply special standards.

[ - ] diggernicks 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 11:08:23 ago (+0/-0)

We need more $ and clinics for planned parenthood

The best nigger is one that never exists