Usually we think of delighted children scampering around searching for brightly-coloured eggs and symbolic rabbits hopping with baskets. However though these seem to be modern, they actually originate before the birth of Christianity. The pagan spring festival includes Ester, or Eostre, and it is a slightly different celebration of the holiday than most of us would think. Johnny Scott investigates this ancient spring festival.
[ + ] TalkUsername7777
[ - ] TalkUsername7777 -3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 06:17:22 ago (+0/-3)
fake and gay
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:45:40 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] account deleted by user
[ - ] account deleted by user 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 02:09:36 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] ReturnOfTheGoats
[ - ] ReturnOfTheGoats 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 04:57:21 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:44:43 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:18:48 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] NationalSocialism
[ - ] NationalSocialism [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:46:44 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:49:38 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 01:51:45 ago (+2/-0)
Eostre was a germanic godess. Imbolc, Lunasa, Samhain were celtic holidays that were celibrated celtic britons, but I would have thought they were already mostly converted by the 500s. Anyway, interesting stuff. Hares and eggs.
[ + ] Clueless_Enigma
[ - ] Clueless_Enigma 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 05:52:57 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:45:43 ago (+1/-0)
In the 6th century the native Britons were somewhat romanized, and, I would assume, mostly christianized, welshy sort of people who hated the anglosaxons, who were pagan invaders. The celts would have celibrated Beltane, even after christianization, one presumes, which is the mid-point between the equinox and the soltice. I don’t thing the germanics had the same holiday. I just think its sloppy for this article to mash in eostre and imbolc together, when they are from two different cultures that were fighting to the death for dominance over britain.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:36:46 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:12:44 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:39:21 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Clueless_Enigma
[ - ] Clueless_Enigma 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:53:24 ago (+0/-0)
What distinctions of the Celts do you see that diverges so prominently from the PIE Pantheon? I would think it to be another iteration that branches off rather than a new entity altogether, unless you're suggesting Celtics to be an offshoot of the Picts?
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:40:37 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] cyclops1771
[ - ] cyclops1771 3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 00:55:12 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] NationalSocialism
[ - ] NationalSocialism [op] 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 01:19:34 ago (+1/-0)*
Clearly, Easter (the name) and imagery such as rabbits, eggs and a temperate seasonal climate are of European origin. Early Christians co-opted pagan traditions to convert Europeans to Christianity. Christmas is another Christian holiday borrowing elements from the Germanic festival of Yule.
[ + ] account deleted by user
[ - ] account deleted by user 3 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 02:13:31 ago (+4/-1)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:42:29 ago (+2/-0)
Imagine you are the discover/inventor of full-length pants.
There is a culture that has never thought of pants, just shorts.
You want to show them the superiority of a culture having pants. Is your best bet to just throw pants at them, or also include some in-between lengths that act as a compromise between pants and shorts?
I very often get the feeling that people too easily confuse sociological facts with religious facts. If the Christians had done everything being accused of them in this thread, it would have zero relevance for assessing the truth of Christianity. This is humans figuring out how to market their brands with the least political conflict.
I don't know why everyone supposes that a Christian tradition surrounding an event occurring in the Spring could not possibly include any themes from other spring celebrations within other cultures. If I celebrate Christ's death and resurrection eating a lamb, and you like to celebrate in the pagan way, but you eat ham, it makes a lot of sense that if I wanted you to accept the truth about Christ, I'd suggest we all get together and eat ham.
There are accidentals, and there are pillars. Using symbols of rabbits or eggs or what have you, in connection with celebrations that ultimately surround the death and resurrection of Christ hardly seems like it merits the purity spiral I'm seeing in this thread.
It's kind of funny if you think about it. People critical of Christianity want to attack it for not being a monolithic thing, as though it is impure and defeated as the result of that impurity. Meanwhile, they espouse pagan traditions which were a historically late hodgepodge of traditions in which you could swap out most religious concepts for ten others and nothing would change.
It's more important to look at religious pillars, not accidentals.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:35:01 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:18:25 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] cyclops1771
[ - ] cyclops1771 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 22:18:58 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod
[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 7 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 07:20:01 ago (+7/-0)
everything bad in christianty comes from jews (give us your money, rapture the whole world, don't fight back, zion 4eva)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:18:21 ago (+1/-0)
This does nothing to undermine the uniqueness or significance of the passion of Christ; it occurred in the spring because the historical events surrounding Christ's ministry and crucifixion can be understood, first, according to the Jewish traditions that occurred at that time of year.
It is not tremendously difficult to understand why the crucifixion of Christ occurred when it did. These are historical facts, not imitations of pagan tradition. Again, all enduring cultures have celebrated the spring with holy veneration.
Your comment is so stupid it is bewildering.
@PostWallHelena
[ + ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod
[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 02:19:23 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 08:41:52 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod
[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 4 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:15:50 ago (+4/-0)
what christianity did stop is ANIMAL sacrifice. and i'm glad they did, it was an idiotic practice. and they may have extended the greek influence of stopping human sacrifice in the far reaches, but that advance was going to happen without christianity regardless.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:32:35 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:30:44 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:45:56 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:52:47 ago (+0/-0)
The full comment appears in my profile view, but not in the actual comments inside the post.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 10:31:48 ago (+0/-0)
Is it? Farmers slaughter animals all the time, either in times of plenty because the herd has exceeded what the land can support, or in times of drought or famine when there's less resources than expected. Sometimes the decision of which animals to slaughter and when can mean the difference between prosperity and penury. In such circumstances it makes perfect sense to involve the gods, pray for success and invite them to the resulting feast.
There's also the consideration that a certain amount of sin applies to killing an animal. In jewish religions animals are seen as soulless playthings for humans to dispose of as they please. In european religions they're often seen as occupying a lower order in the karmic cycle, but still comparable to humans, so their death has to be brought about with the blessing of the gods.
There were some ceremonies which involved a holocaust (burned offering) but those were on the scale of an entire nation and celebrated only once a year, or every few years. A goat being sacrificed by hundreds of thousands of people is not an enormous amount of waste and doesn't entail any more suffering than a goat being slaughtered for food.
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:09:18 ago (+1/-0)
peckish... er, pious today. “[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:05:27 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:26:32 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:52:56 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena -1 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:20:22 ago (+0/-1)*
Where did I say they are disgusting barbarians? The greeks were practicing human sacrifice at the same time as the semites.
[ + ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod
[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:57:04 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:41:43 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod
[ - ] BlueEyedAngloMasterRaceGod 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 02:24:35 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 2 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:07:48 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 11:00:30 ago (+0/-0)
Gonna disagree. Burning people at the stake could be human sacrifice, but burning heretics is not human sacrifice. Pagan europeans typically picked their “best” for sacrifice - these were not punishments for breaking the rules.
You can’t just say “Christians were brutal and murderous too so they also practice sacrifice.” Its not the same thing. Nobody is saying Christians aren’t ever brutal. But they did not practice sacrifice , as far as I know. The Christians did not say :” hey theres a perfectly good virgin over there, lets stick her in the wicker man.
Don’t agree. I imagine that pagan human sacrifice in europe, as in the ME, and basically everywhere else, was ubiquitous. Ubiquitous. Totally. We do ourselves a disservice when we deny that our fairly recent ancestors were capable of these sort of superstitious killings. The homer story shows that it was common practice among iron age greeks. Greeks and Romans had given up the practice by the period of classical antiquity but the celts had not. The germanics had not.
We love to point out that the Mayans were removing people’s hearts 500 years ago in creepy ceremonies. Or the semites for moloch. Or sati. But we don’t want to look at what we were up to on that score.
The psycho-historians were a group of freudian anthropologists that an interesting theory about murder and sexual abuse, particularly with respect to children, within societies. They documented human sacrifice in ancient societies as well as in contemporary tribal groups. After reading some of their stuff, I came to the conclusion that basically everybody was doing it.
Im just trying to encourage a more balanced debate the blueeyed initiated, which was a pretty biased statement. There were some good changes that occured in europe that are associated with Christianity. And they didn’t all come from whites.
How about dudes fucking each other in the ass? I don’t know if that was acceptable practice among the Celts but the Romans and Greeks both did it until Christianity outlawed it.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 12:13:05 ago (+1/-0)
Why is it not human sacrifice? It's an act of purifying the community in order to restore divine favour. I don't see any meaningful distinction there.
Well you're entitled to your imagination, but keep in mind your imagination has mostly been shaped by the accounts of Roman and Greek authors trying hard to distinguish themselves from their "barbaric" neighbours. They weren't above lying about other civilisations to justify their wars.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 13:26:09 ago (+0/-0)*
The Greek pagans were the only pagan society and body of thought worth anybody's time. Their neighbors were barbarians, and Helena is correct to point out the radical gaps in sophistication between the Greeks and the other European pagans, not just in terms of religious systems but also in terms of civics and institutions.
The main social benefit of Abrahamic faiths came from the way these situated gender roles in human society; the celts and germanic tribes still venerated women, in terms of spiritual significance, at the same level or higher than men. Women were ubiquitously treated as superior diviners of the will of the gods. Abrahamic faiths made the step of grasping the connection between evil and the feminine, and thus, situated the feminine with respect to the masculine within a hierarchical situation in which God acts through man, who via his moral perfection can also perfect the feminine, by analogy. God is to man as man is to female, in terms of the salvific relation.
Put another way, God does not save woman, and then also saves man. God saves woman via man, by connecting them in the proper relationship. We do not want a return to paganism. A cursory observation of the 'bohemian' trends that kicked up throughout the 18th-20th centuries in cosmopolitan Europe (and later the Americas) reveals this common feature of a return to male-female metaphysical egalitarianism.
@PostWallHelena
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:39:39 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:00:17 ago (+0/-0)
I won't argue you about theology here, but I wish I could communicate succinctly how the female subordination to the male is not an example of metaphysical submission or inferiority --> only social, only in terms of material relations in the world.
To put it shortly, and this is going back a long way, the female is originally what 'distracted' God from being God. This is very archetypal, but it works for my purposes. All of material creation (matter), which is woman/womb, is the bride of God's seminal Logos. This is why in the narrative Eve is the one who eats the apple. You could say God is coming into creation for her, or creation happens because of her. But that's why hers is chaos, and 'rescuing' woman is done by the male in via.
It's not about muh masculinity must beat woman into submission. It's that woman's power has to be contained and channeled or it becomes chaotic. This isn't a lowly position, but ya know, women's lib and everything. Gotta do the 9-5 to be free.
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 16:41:40 ago (+0/-0)
I don’t have a big beef with christianity on this score. European christian society is relatively egalitarian. There are worse places to be a woman.
In the end, it comes down to what works. Men have to dominate women either physically or economically otherwise they become superfluous and women are so happy and free they dispense with reproduction and the society fails. So nature does not seem to favor independent women at this time. As Ive said elsewhere, over and over again (and over, and over) , there is nothing inherently evil about the female character and there is nothing inherently logical about the male character. Males are as illogical and emotion based as women— they simply have a different emotional make-up. Woman seems like “chaos” to a male theologian for the usual reasons: male theologians are driven to posses women, but they tend to get in the way of theologinating (I just invented that word) and they have totally different priorities than males, which simply cannot be right, because male theologians talked it over and agree that they don’t make any sense!
Its like saying female dogs are chaotic and evil compared to male dogs. Male dogs represent progress. Female dogs are a throwback to some more backward carnivore. Absurd. Female dogs’ behavior makes perfect sense for female dogs, who have to birth and raise baby dogs. They are perfectly adapted to the job they must accomplish.
“It's that woman's power has to be contained and channeled or it becomes chaotic”
The chaos is in men’s minds, not in women. Its just arbitrary. Men are full of chaos. You simply choose to overlook it.
As an evolutionist, I would hazard to say that men want/need to control women’s sexuality because if they don’t, they can’t establish paternity (historically) and if they can’t establish paternity, then there’s no sense working and taking care of the wife and kids, and western civilization crumbles. But it isn’t because women are really chaotic. More likely, it’s an instinct in men to control women for their own reproductive strategies.
I don’t think having and raising kids is a lowly position. But it is a position that puts one at an economic disadvantage to a man.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 17:23:25 ago (+0/-0)
The paradigm of 'ask your husband' under Christianity is not saying he is better than you. In fact, it is acknowledging his mentality is more suited to a particular domain of the pair's existence than her is: namely, concerns of the tribe/nation/polity and its endurance/perpetuation into the future. I can totally step out of religious matters and make a case regarding the female psychology, that it is intrinsically more self-oriented and less group-oriented than the male psychology. This is typically what I mean when I say that man and woman play different moral games.
This purchases the fairly reliable assumption that the men within a society will tend to emphasize laws/practices that protect the entire 'game' of society. This is why they tend to be more militaristic, and why the male in-group v. out-group perception pertains to a much wider field than the more effeminate field of one's being a stranger to a particular social circle. Men are thinking about invaders of nations. Women are thinking about invaders of a communal order, the predictability or threat of particular males that come a' callin'. Of course, I'm speaking of general trends and not of rules that deterministically govern all men or all women - it's fairly obvious that you are interested in topics at the level I've just characterized as 'male'; then again, you are an exception among women (at least in my experience). It does no good to say that you've met others at this site who are like you; it is very likely the case that women who 'make it' at sites as male-skewed as this one are just those who are a bit different than the typical female population who statistically avoids these places.
The point I'm making is that there is a reason for the 'ask your husband' paradigm. We can assume that a woman's moral priorities will be far more geared toward her wellbeing and her child's - they will be domestic in scope, meaning only that their boundaries are 'closer to her interests'. The man has a predicament in a society, which in being diplomatic among other men and carrying on his civic duties for mutually protecting the whole social 'game' means that he has to make decisions that are not only for his family's (his wife's, his children's) interests, but he must balance these against the prevailing national interests. Thus, it is for the male to be the diplomat.
There is no proper interpretation of the Christian marriage dynamic where a man is 'better' than his wife. Instead, the intention is that he and she will work it out together. She will present her arguments. He will present his own. There ought to be compromise, often taking domain specific boundaries: she will more often compromise here, and he will more often compromise there. In the end, each household in a society must represent a decision - not two, not three, but one - else society is fragmented, or fragment-able by dividing the wife from her husband (which is precisely what feminism accomplished, and opened itself up to wolves by virtue of this). Thus, it is said for reasons stated above, that the final 'house' decision comes to the male. Again, if he is acting properly, he will not ignore his wife, but he will consider her interests very seriously because they are the ones he ultimately represents, and she is the one he lives for. This is really about hierarchy for the sake of social endurance.
A society where the male and female are separated into individual 'sovereign' units is a weaker society. Families are the relevant unit, and there is no family without hierarchy and leadership. My ideology would simply be that which says that it is more appropriate for the male psychology and social role to be the arbiter of the final decision, since it is he who mediates between his family and other families, which can also be understood as the highest risk position in the society: since it is his head which is on the chopping block if diplomacy fails. He understands this better than the female does, who again, is predominantly selfish, for good evolutionary reasons.
The word 'evil' is loaded. But there is something inherently anti-social in the female character. They will say that men have more anti-social qualities, and this is true, because his disagreeability just is his ability to compete with other males in the social game of differentially winning more resources for his own wife. Women on the other, who are traditionally considered as being pro-social, are highly agreeable in public which can make the overall society toxic (consider how our feminized society uses virtue signaling like moral tokens to play contrived games, even while most of these people know they are lying through their teeth - the facts of reality are buried beneath Brady Bunch social dynamics and the infection mounts), even while in her heart she is doing all of this purely for self-seeking. One cannot deny, if they have experience, the way women behave in groups of other women. I've heard so many women discuss how toxic women truly are: this toxicity is an overwrought term to describe her self-seeking behavior.
Men cannot behave this way, or there would be no society. They must be more diplomatic with other men. Again, there are always exceptions. And it is the case that the moment you introduce women into any competitive hierarchy, the entire thing becomes feminized. Men can no longer compete in a pure way, they must adjust their strategies to become more feminized. This always leads to less efficiency. Male hierarchies are pure social efficiency. Women become resentful about this fact, but most often this is because they tend to focus on the males who are successful, and they tend not even to 'see' the men who are not. If they did, they'd realize men were the true sacrificial elements of society. The majority of men are sacrificed, even when they don't die. "Look, a boardroom filled with ten men! An injustice!" No, because there are 10,000 others who couldn't make it there, and those men will be decrepit by 50 years from knee and hip problems, working rough jobs in mines, or working on high lines, or what have you.
Women that are not controlled by the society in this way do tend to promote chaos, primarily when their nurturing instinct is prevented from being focused on the self and the home, and becomes overextended/misguided into helping members of the out-group. Men are a boundary condition needed to prevent this from happening.
Your views on the evolutionary biological 'cum wars' between man and woman are mistaken, in my view. Again, there's always a rule. You could view them this way, if all we are is selfish genes. I believe in concepts like final causation (telos), where the male-female pair have an intrinsic essence to be united in this way. You want to say that each has their own exclusive reproductive strategy that competes against men; I want to say it competes against individual men, so it is a heuristic for finding the best male. But none of this make sense if there is not a higher order governing the ideal society.
A society can consist of warring men and women who play fertility games and act monogam-ish. A society can consist of a more logical order than this, and it is without exception that a society under the Christian view is a better one, in which both male and female sacrifice their perfect freedom to the higher duty of their bond.
Partners, not enemies. This is a choice. No rational argument can implore that choice.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 14:48:30 ago (+0/-0)
Ok, and why was that law passed if not to please a deity?
It does? The primary agent of the inquisition (Torquemada) was jewish.
Imagine simping this hard for an ancient tribe with a superiority complex.
This is objectively false. Feminist neo-pagan larpers are not a reflection of the original societies they claim to copy. Name me a female druid please.
Speak for yourself. Ditching the iron-age globalist cult would do us a lot of good.
Again, feminist larping does not reflect the original european religions. And incidentally those larpers mostly turn out to be jewish. We do not need more jewish religious views in europe, we need less.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:17:42 ago (+0/-0)
As a converso, Torquemada was recognized as being remarkably zealous with respect to his Christianity. He took a movement which had not even begun as an anti-Jewish movement in Spain distinctly, and he made it an anti-Jewish movement. These dialectics are complex, i.e. between Christians and Jews in the Renaissance. Some conversos were legitimate. Some were not.
A superiority complex is not a complex if you really are superior. Greeks gave us Plato and Aristotle; I'll wait for the example from Druidry that could even possibly be on par with the genius of the former. But the Druids weren't even transmitting anything into history in writing at that point.
(Name a female Druid please)
How about the Bandorai (Banduri)?
How about Norse Seidhr?
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:45:04 ago (+0/-0)
The inquisition didn't just kill jews or members of the church, it also killed white protestants. If we're really going to make all these exceptions and excuses for christian religious authorities killing people then we need to do the same for non-christians, in which case human sacrifice all but disappears.
Classical sources mention female spiritual figures, but not ones taking a leading ecclesiatical role. If that's your metric then we can easily say the same about christianity.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 15:55:05 ago (+0/-0)
So we have the distinction between feminine spiritual figures and female 'clergy'. Catholicism has Mary, but not a plethora of feminine goddesses - it situates the divine feminine in one person. I take this as a more highly sophisticated structure, in the same way that monotheism is more sophisticated than polytheism. That is, it is achieving greater abstraction in its universals.
I'm not terribly educated on druidism. But as far as I knew the Bondorai were female druids (priestesses). I am skeptical that ancient Druidism or Norse religion started as a strict patriarchy and somehow morphed over time. The archaeological evidence I am aware of for the most primitive belief systems suggests a completely opposite development. Under regular conditions, religions begin with worship of the feminine and evolve beyond this. For that reason, I'm skeptical that Druidism began as you are suggesting it did. I don't argue that there weren't social norms that made it less likely a woman would become a druid, but I do think the feminine sexual relation to the divine was a cornerstone of ancient pagan ritual, and things like sexual rituals or orgiastic rituals were not uncommon.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsApr 16, 2022 09:07:13 ago (+1/-0)*
1. If we're going to accuse pagans of human sacrifice we're going to need to do the same for christians. Arresting non-believers and burning them at the stake in the presence of religious authorities as an "act of faith" is human sacrifice. Not to mention that the entire religion is based on an act of human sacrifice (and one remarkably similar to indo-european myth at that). This critique also applies to atheist philosophies. Almost every society does or has executed people with all kinds of ceremony and social-theatre.
2. If we're going to excuse christianity and say that the auto-da-fé and similar rituals don't count, then we also need to discount almost all pagan human sacrifice. Most of it involved the killing of humans for a specific practical purpose (like executing thieves). The religious authorities were involved because they were involved in any important event, but that doesn't mean the event was religious and would not have happened in a christian society.
3. Actual pagan sacrifice purely for religious purposes was rare, but did occur. The only example I can think of where it involved an unwilling victim was the sacrifice of Iphigenia by Agamemnon, however this is typically treated as sacrilege and causes an enormous curse on his family. As for willing adult sacrifices I don't see those as degenerate provided that the victim and cause are worthy. Furthermore there are direct parallels in christianity in the form of mortification of the flesh and abstinence. This is usually non-fatal, but does rarely result in death and is usually treated as an act of faith rather than suicide. There are also similar practices among some buddhist sects whose monks begin eating a diet of preservative poisons eventually resulting in their body becoming mummified. They believe that in doing so they are able to alleviate natural disasters such as famine. This is clearly human sacrifice by a pagan group but is rarely treated as such by commentators.
TL;DR "Pagan human sacrifice" is only a problem if you apply special standards.
[ + ] diggernicks
[ - ] diggernicks 0 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 11:08:23 ago (+0/-0)
The best nigger is one that never exists