Forgiveness is white. It’s the reason why white countries aren’t shitholes with people murdering each other all the time. Duh. In the middle east, if you forget to bring back your neighbor’s lawnmower, they murder you.
Justice is White and why White countries weren't traditionally shitholes. Before Christianity in the north there was a strong tradition of kinship vengeance where the family HAD to retaliate for wrongs done. This was a significant defining part of the very White culture there.
However it didn't need to be violence, a price in money could be paid to put things to rest, even in the case of outright murder and was common. With justice being served that way everyone was content and peace was restored to whatever the conflict was.
Forgiveness in those cases would instead lead to a family being marginalized because they were seen as weak cowards. The result was a people who you did not want to fuck with but who still had a well functioning society.
Justice isn't White because no man can do justice. Only God can do justice. What justice can one do e.g. for the rape and murder of a child? Justice is only for God. Man is only capable of defense. For some reason we want our governments to do justice yet consider pre-crime killings immoral. In reality it's the opposite. When a murderer gets death, no one honestly says "yay justice was done". It wasn't. The victim is still uncompensated. If people are happy it is from the knowledge that the evildoer can never do harm again. This is pre-crime, a concept most consider vile.
That's stupid. Kill the rapist. Justice done. And yes people say justice was done.
Another sign Christianity is jewed is trying to steal and redefine virtuous words and concepts and claim authority over them. Justice was actually a Roman Goddess btw, her name is Justitia and you would recognize her as the nice blindfolded lady holding up scales in front of the court building.
A farmer can forgive a fox for attacking the hens, as the farmer is killing the fox.
You found an example of a western evangelical retard who Judaized his beliefs on the basis of one 'Bible lecture', and suddenly he started preaching what the Seventh Day Adventists do. Read the 'About' section of the blog; he is denying the Trinity. This is not a Christian. At least, it isn't reasonable to take a controversial opinion from this writer and parade it around as essential to Christian ethics.
Forgiveness is central, but nowhere is a particular object of forgiveness given doctrinally. I mean that Christianity establishes forgiveness as a virtue, but it neither tells any one person who to forgive, nor does it suggest superficially what forgiveness means. Does forgiveness mean laying down prostrate for someone to walk over you? Fuck no.
It has to do with the hatred one has in his heart, and how this morally poisons him.
You can defend a home from an attacker, or cut the head off a snake, without hatred in your heart.
Justice is killing for what was already done. Defense is killing to prevent what will be done. These are separate concepts, one derived from the past and the other the future. Forgiveness is for the past, and we should forgive. But about the future, in regards to defense, are we not also required to turn the other cheek?
[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 11:32:01 ago (+1/-0)*
Suppose there is a situation where one person has 'slapped' another on the face. Of course, slapping is a metaphor in this instance for civil dispute. Many people incorrectly assume 'slapped' exhausts every kind of possible harm, but there is a hermeneutic reason why we should honor the common sense use of the image of 'slapping' here. It refers to a kind of condescension, a slight. It does not refer to someone murdering you, your child, or some other egregious act.
If the writers had intended 'slapped' to exhaust all possibilities of harm, we can assume they probably would have included other examples: "If a man slays your boy child, give him the neck of your girl child also." This is clearly not the intention of the passage, clearly not its meaning. So first we need to limit realistically what kinds of slights 'slapped' really refers to. The best interpretations I've seen - given the legal focus of the Hebrews - is that this refers to civil disputes or to ordinary interpersonal social competition.
So we have this hypothetical where one person has slapped another. We can analyze this situation in one of two ways: we can analyze the act itself, or the intentions (internal state) of the person who has been slighted. It's the latter dimension that's of interest because the writers of this passage are not really concerned about slapping (it's just a symbolic vessel for the lesson). So we are interested in the internal state of the slighted person.
What it is telling us is that we should not internally worship the 'god of revenge'; we should not entertain in ourselves for there to grow a love of revenge. In other words, we should not act - in the narrow domain of civil disputes with our neighbors - on the basis of our immediate emotions/impulses, but with reason. This is not, therefore, a rigid rule for what you should do, but rather a more general guide about how to become aware of your motivations.
It could be that you should return the strike, if the situation demands it, say, if the person is literally hitting you and shows no signs he intends to stop hitting you until something else stops him. In that case, hit back.
The point is to assess your actions, to authentically reflect, and not to act on the basis of revenge. Don't seek revenge against a neighbor who slights you. If there is a dispute, solve it with reason.
At the same time, this acknowledges that the norm for people is not reason, but impulse. In this sense, it is calling for a sacrifice in the ordinary business of your social groups. The enlightened person will act on the basis of reason, whereas the lesser person acts on the basis of impulse. You are called to do the former, even when those cruder people in your midst do the latter.
So it is a warning both against the poison of harboring desire for revenge, and also against pride. A person who is slighted often feels that immediate embarrassment and the ensuing social impulse to have his revenge so as not to look like he's 'lost' the exchange. He slapped me. I must slap him back. But is this not the way of niggers? Muh disrespek!
This is a Biblical transmission of Stoicism, which influenced Christianity heavily.
Don't act on impulse. Turn the other cheek as a defiant sign that another person's crude mode of handling a situation is not something you will stoop to. Here's the other cheek. I offer it as a sign to indicate I'm above your petty shit. Be petty, but I won't meet you down there in the mud. Just because a pig bit me, does not mean that I will get down in the mud to wrestle it. 'Winning' in that moment will only get me muddy and cause me, in the eyes of my neighbors, to join the foolery. I become one of the fools.
This passage has positively nothing to do with military combat or more significant group-lvl attacks on a society. It is just a Stoic message given in a parabolic form, which Jesus was pretty fond of doing.
He lifted sentences straight out of that blog post. That's pretty scummy.
Anyway, I will have to look into this. It seems plausible, but the argument includes a historical claim about a quasi-universal ("all Roman soldiers swatted Jews with the back of their right hand"), and that strikes me as a bit tenuous. I mean that there was a custom so ubiquitous that Jews would have recognized it when Jesus simply referred to the 'left' cheek, that he was referring in sideways manner to a custom for Roman soldier's aggression toward Jews. It seems a little specious, but again, not implausible. Yet neither of these authors cites any historical evidence for that custom.
Additionally, this passage from the Sermon on the Mount is recapitulated in two sections of scripture, not just in Matthew, but also in Luke. In Luke, there is no reference to the left cheek specifically.
I think, in the end, regardless of what was meant by Jesus here (which we might never know with the kind of certainty we know other things), I'd want to stress that polemics against the 'passivity' of Christianity tend (imo) to overemphasize and read incorrect propositions into this 'turn the other cheek' business.
Not vouching for that author, just grabbed a random article that explained the concept.
I don't think it's far fetched, and after centuries of translation it makes more sense to me. Imagine people 1000 years from now trying to explain "giving someone the bird" when they're unfamiliar with that phrase. For us it's a common gesture.
I do think it's subversive in nature though, and hence jewish.
I also agree that it weakens the "passive Christians turn the other cheek" argument which is why I don't use that in serious discussion. I still see passivity as one of the poison pills of the religion though.
I'm not going to make a case for that here. I believe you're sincere and I would rather think through my stance rather than give you a lazy or confrontational take on it. I've been thinking a lot lately about how Christians and Pagans need to find common ground for our common cause. Not an easy problem to solve.
I definitely wasn't attacking that author in order to attack you; I just went looking for another source quickly and happened to notice that. It probably wasn't even worth mentioning.
I've been thinking a lot lately about how Christians and Pagans need to find common ground for our common cause. Not an easy problem to solve.
If you need that many words to explain it away, you can be certain that a large portion of people don't think like that and are instead taking the simpler message of "just forgive them goy"
It's a problem, surely, the loss of an intellectual tradition in western religion. The bar has fallen.
The problem with what (I gather) you're implying is that it doesn't make a truth a falsehood, just because people (even the majority of them) aren't fit for it. So, what to do. Do we abandon truth for the sake of what is convenient, or most accessible, to those who are unworthy of it? Do we accept a religion that takes only a few words to get across, because its simple nature is more amenable to lesser men?
I recall you mentioning that you started as a Christian (Catholic?) and discovered paganism later. This is better than being godless. But since I doubt either of us plans to invest the time necessary into this comment string, we might just agree to disagree for now. I'll just say that I believe ideologies cause the world to become easier to navigate, and they make life easier to cope with. Christianity, properly understood, does no such thing. It makes life almost unfathomably harder. It's often caricatured as a cope, but this is wrong.
Leftists are put at ease by their ideologies, for a central authority validates their mediocrity and enforces it. Christianity calls you to suffer. It is the one coherent way to make any sense of the suffering of existence. It's the opposite of Leftism.
If you would like to agree to disagree then stop presenting arguments when I say I don't agree. I assure you I "properly understand" Christianity from studying it 6 days a week (in a structured environment, not on my own) for a number of years within the Catholic faith and also by seeing it from the viewpoints of other sects through discussion with a wide variety of friends.
I responded to your comparison between Leftism and Christianity. I am agreeing to disagree with you, while not giving up ground I shouldn't be willing to give.
No worries friend. I think I misread your response earlier and I may have also been in a poor mood. Your words were reasonable and I was being a little aggro.
I appreciate your apology, man, but there is no need. These things are important. Anything important should get us riled up. No harm at all. Aggro is good if you mean it.
Patently stupid statements can also be forgiven, for such a statement, spoken even by the smartest man - let alone niggerdicks - has no effect on reality.
[ + ] ForgottenMemes
[ - ] ForgottenMemes 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 12:40:31 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Nashorn
[ - ] Nashorn 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 10:49:44 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] i_scream_trucks
[ - ] i_scream_trucks 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 10:46:33 ago (+1/-1)
bow bow.
we ask god for forgiveness. atheist transgender khazarians are not real jews.
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 3 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:32:56 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:57:13 ago (+1/-0)
However it didn't need to be violence, a price in money could be paid to put things to rest, even in the case of outright murder and was common. With justice being served that way everyone was content and peace was restored to whatever the conflict was.
Forgiveness in those cases would instead lead to a family being marginalized because they were seen as weak cowards. The result was a people who you did not want to fuck with but who still had a well functioning society.
[ + ] Teefinyomouf
[ - ] Teefinyomouf 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 11:18:20 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 11:28:43 ago (+1/-0)
Another sign Christianity is jewed is trying to steal and redefine virtuous words and concepts and claim authority over them. Justice was actually a Roman Goddess btw, her name is Justitia and you would recognize her as the nice blindfolded lady holding up scales in front of the court building.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 5 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:09:20 ago (+5/-0)
You found an example of a western evangelical retard who Judaized his beliefs on the basis of one 'Bible lecture', and suddenly he started preaching what the Seventh Day Adventists do. Read the 'About' section of the blog; he is denying the Trinity. This is not a Christian. At least, it isn't reasonable to take a controversial opinion from this writer and parade it around as essential to Christian ethics.
Forgiveness is central, but nowhere is a particular object of forgiveness given doctrinally. I mean that Christianity establishes forgiveness as a virtue, but it neither tells any one person who to forgive, nor does it suggest superficially what forgiveness means. Does forgiveness mean laying down prostrate for someone to walk over you? Fuck no.
It has to do with the hatred one has in his heart, and how this morally poisons him.
You can defend a home from an attacker, or cut the head off a snake, without hatred in your heart.
[ + ] Teefinyomouf
[ - ] Teefinyomouf 2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 11:11:54 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 11:32:01 ago (+1/-0)*
If the writers had intended 'slapped' to exhaust all possibilities of harm, we can assume they probably would have included other examples: "If a man slays your boy child, give him the neck of your girl child also." This is clearly not the intention of the passage, clearly not its meaning. So first we need to limit realistically what kinds of slights 'slapped' really refers to. The best interpretations I've seen - given the legal focus of the Hebrews - is that this refers to civil disputes or to ordinary interpersonal social competition.
So we have this hypothetical where one person has slapped another. We can analyze this situation in one of two ways: we can analyze the act itself, or the intentions (internal state) of the person who has been slighted. It's the latter dimension that's of interest because the writers of this passage are not really concerned about slapping (it's just a symbolic vessel for the lesson). So we are interested in the internal state of the slighted person.
What it is telling us is that we should not internally worship the 'god of revenge'; we should not entertain in ourselves for there to grow a love of revenge. In other words, we should not act - in the narrow domain of civil disputes with our neighbors - on the basis of our immediate emotions/impulses, but with reason. This is not, therefore, a rigid rule for what you should do, but rather a more general guide about how to become aware of your motivations.
It could be that you should return the strike, if the situation demands it, say, if the person is literally hitting you and shows no signs he intends to stop hitting you until something else stops him. In that case, hit back.
The point is to assess your actions, to authentically reflect, and not to act on the basis of revenge. Don't seek revenge against a neighbor who slights you. If there is a dispute, solve it with reason.
At the same time, this acknowledges that the norm for people is not reason, but impulse. In this sense, it is calling for a sacrifice in the ordinary business of your social groups. The enlightened person will act on the basis of reason, whereas the lesser person acts on the basis of impulse. You are called to do the former, even when those cruder people in your midst do the latter.
So it is a warning both against the poison of harboring desire for revenge, and also against pride. A person who is slighted often feels that immediate embarrassment and the ensuing social impulse to have his revenge so as not to look like he's 'lost' the exchange. He slapped me. I must slap him back. But is this not the way of niggers? Muh disrespek!
This is a Biblical transmission of Stoicism, which influenced Christianity heavily.
Don't act on impulse. Turn the other cheek as a defiant sign that another person's crude mode of handling a situation is not something you will stoop to. Here's the other cheek. I offer it as a sign to indicate I'm above your petty shit. Be petty, but I won't meet you down there in the mud. Just because a pig bit me, does not mean that I will get down in the mud to wrestle it. 'Winning' in that moment will only get me muddy and cause me, in the eyes of my neighbors, to join the foolery. I become one of the fools.
This passage has positively nothing to do with military combat or more significant group-lvl attacks on a society. It is just a Stoic message given in a parabolic form, which Jesus was pretty fond of doing.
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 12:10:44 ago (+0/-0)
https://kent-dahlgren.medium.com/turn-the-other-cheek-2021-b7fab7ff5da0
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 17, 2022 10:16:36 ago (+0/-0)
He lifted sentences straight out of that blog post. That's pretty scummy.
Anyway, I will have to look into this. It seems plausible, but the argument includes a historical claim about a quasi-universal ("all Roman soldiers swatted Jews with the back of their right hand"), and that strikes me as a bit tenuous. I mean that there was a custom so ubiquitous that Jews would have recognized it when Jesus simply referred to the 'left' cheek, that he was referring in sideways manner to a custom for Roman soldier's aggression toward Jews. It seems a little specious, but again, not implausible. Yet neither of these authors cites any historical evidence for that custom.
Additionally, this passage from the Sermon on the Mount is recapitulated in two sections of scripture, not just in Matthew, but also in Luke. In Luke, there is no reference to the left cheek specifically.
I think, in the end, regardless of what was meant by Jesus here (which we might never know with the kind of certainty we know other things), I'd want to stress that polemics against the 'passivity' of Christianity tend (imo) to overemphasize and read incorrect propositions into this 'turn the other cheek' business.
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 17, 2022 16:52:41 ago (+0/-0)
Not vouching for that author, just grabbed a random article that explained the concept.
I don't think it's far fetched, and after centuries of translation it makes more sense to me. Imagine people 1000 years from now trying to explain "giving someone the bird" when they're unfamiliar with that phrase. For us it's a common gesture.
I do think it's subversive in nature though, and hence jewish.
I also agree that it weakens the "passive Christians turn the other cheek" argument which is why I don't use that in serious discussion. I still see passivity as one of the poison pills of the religion though.
I'm not going to make a case for that here. I believe you're sincere and I would rather think through my stance rather than give you a lazy or confrontational take on it. I've been thinking a lot lately about how Christians and Pagans need to find common ground for our common cause. Not an easy problem to solve.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 18, 2022 00:33:21 ago (+0/-0)
I definitely wasn't attacking that author in order to attack you; I just went looking for another source quickly and happened to notice that. It probably wasn't even worth mentioning.
I agree with both of these statements.
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler -1 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:30:19 ago (+0/-1)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 3 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:35:19 ago (+3/-0)*
The problem with what (I gather) you're implying is that it doesn't make a truth a falsehood, just because people (even the majority of them) aren't fit for it. So, what to do. Do we abandon truth for the sake of what is convenient, or most accessible, to those who are unworthy of it? Do we accept a religion that takes only a few words to get across, because its simple nature is more amenable to lesser men?
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:48:18 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:54:20 ago (+2/-0)
Leftists are put at ease by their ideologies, for a central authority validates their mediocrity and enforces it. Christianity calls you to suffer. It is the one coherent way to make any sense of the suffering of existence. It's the opposite of Leftism.
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 10:08:50 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 10:12:06 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 1 point 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 21:23:30 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 21:51:14 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] diggernicks
[ - ] diggernicks -1 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:41:21 ago (+1/-2)
Denial ain't just a river in egypt
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:45:51 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] diggernicks
[ - ] diggernicks -1 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 10:23:33 ago (+1/-2)
I'm gen x
Not that old yet
[ + ] diggernicks
[ - ] diggernicks -2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:23:21 ago (+1/-3)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:28:06 ago (+3/-1)
[ + ] diggernicks
[ - ] diggernicks -1 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:28:51 ago (+1/-2)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 4 points 3.0 yearsMay 16, 2022 09:34:32 ago (+4/-0)